Thursday, December 9, 2010

Dueling Catholics

Last week I was taken to task by an Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon board person, Jim Buck, over the term "evil" I used to describe EMO.  I stand by this "evil" description in the light of what the Church teaches.  There are many emails I have sent regarding this issue.  www.vocalnews.org  and I'll connect even more dots in a while.  There are six responses just to let you know.

I think the emails are over now and want to share with you negative "synergy" happening, something we are warned against by the Holy Father.  This is when basically we hang out with people who believe differently than us and slowly become them, losing our way.
Dueling Catholics


#1
Carolyn,
As a life-long Catholic I have been closely associated with EMO for the past eight years and know first-hand the positive ministries they have related to assisting the homeless, hungry, HIV patients, refugees and others.  I have met many individuals from all faiths working hand in hand through this organization.  These people are incredibly Christ-like in their concern for their brothers and sisters and are working to preserve and uplift life.  Your wholesale judgment against EMO seems contrary to what Scripture tells us about making judgments.  EMO has taken no official position supporting abortion and contrary to your website provides important help to those in need.


Anyone who communicates with this level of vehemence has other issues that should be confronted.  Yours is not a voice of love, respect or support of life as that must begin with a sincere yearning for the truth.  You don't seek truth, you seek instead to rant, judge and condemn without a factual or even remote theological basis for your actions.   You don't represent Catholic faith but are doing a good job of trying to fragment it rather than nourish it.

Jim
Jim,

I appreciate your defense of EMO.  However, your credentials as a Catholic cause your opinions to be null and void.  There is no "vehemence" in my words, and I am a seeker after the Truth.  Your "theological basis" is not Catholic, unless you've changed your opinions valuing all life.

Look into EMO.  You will see factual, truthful opinions and as a practicing Catholic, I do think EMO is an alliance we should not brag about.  We have different ideas of what Christ's True Church will tolerate, the good things don't out weigh the evil.

God Bless,
Carolyn


#2
Carolyn,

Thank you for your wish of blessings my way.  God (and every one else probably) knows I could use them.  What I fail to comprehend is how you can be the judge of who has "credentials" and who doesn't  in this Church.  


Pope John Paul II talked about ecumenism as the "future of the Church" and for you to say we shouldn't be pursuing such alliances in the pursuit of a unified Church in Christ's name seems antithetical to what the popes since Vatican II have been urging.


Our own Church is not wholly innocent or omniscient in all its decisions and neither is any other church organization.  EMO's decisions since I've been associated with the organization are largely around policy issues dealing with the poor or the environment.  These typically align almost 100% with Catholic positions on the same issues.

EMO has not taken a position on abortion or even one on end of life issues that I am aware of.  If you have contrary information to share, I'd be happy to take a look at it. 

In conclusion, I'll trust some day that God will be the ultimate judge of my credentials--not only as a Catholic either.
Jim

Jim,
As a Catholic are you against abortion, for parental notification, against partial birth abortion, for one woman, one man in marriage, see active homosexuality as a disorder or has Vatican II changed that too?

Here are folks that say it very succinctly.

"Whether canonical or self excommunication, out of communion is out of communion with the Church.


If not that, the Church Body becomes a community of “cafeteria Catholics”.
In actuality, protestants sitting in a Catholic Church.


Homosexual acts were not accepted by the Jews, by the Apostles or by the Early Church fathers.


Seemingly large numbers of people in our society are attempting to rewrite the meaning of Sacred Scripture.


Supporting or defending the sexual acts of homosexuals places a Catholic outside the Eucharist, outside of the teachings & traditions of the Catholic Church, and outside of Sacred Scripture.


Least we forget, as evidenced in Scripture, sexual acts between people of the same sex are mortal sins. Sins so mortal & grievous that entire cities were destroyed where these homosexual acts were exclusively practiced. 


Gay marriage is De facto support of the sexual acts of homosexuals, bisexuals, transgendered, people in various stages of re engineering their sexual organs, etc.


When a Catholic supports or defends gay marriage, the person places him/herself outside the faith practices of the Church. 


Similar yet more grievous than Catholics who support, defend or practice sexual experimentation between single people and divorced people."


Here's one on abortion. 



“Excommunication issue. If someone rejects the teaching of the Church knowing that such a doctrine, moral or dogmatic, is the constant teaching of the Church, that person is automatically, at least materially, excommunicated.”

“Why?” 


“Because he is no longer a Catholic?”


Yes, that is correct, that person has self excommunicated him or herself from the Church Body and the Body of Christ.


“Am I missing something here?”


No. 


“A Formal excommunication would be a public juridical act, issued by a bishop.”


Yes, normally formal excommunications are issued only after a bishop has provided proper counsel to a person in which he formally addresses their error.
(As Sacred Scripture requests should be done in Matthew 18:15 and Luke 17:3.)



As I understand it, formal excommunications are done when a person turns their private error into a public scandal. 


Recently Kathleen Sabelius’ bishop (after years of dialog with her) announced publicly that she was not to present herself for Communion until she confesses her sin and makes public changes to her voting record as it concerns abortion."


Jim, have you changed your mind on these issues from your 2004 campaign in a public sort of way?  


It would clarify your stand on life and not lead people into error as does Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon  on these subjects. No opinion on abortion for EMO?
 A look at their liberal "progressive" churches and their attitudes on the unborn would tell one otherwise.  It seems like active homosexuality is a slam dunk too.

God Bless, Carolyn

 
#3
Carolyn,


I am not sure what you mean by "active" versus inactive homosexuality, but I am against abortion, for parental notification and against partial birth abortion.  I never said anything differently in my campaign.  I refused to fill out Right to Life's forms because they didn't allow for qualifications to the answers and in other cases they simply did not transfer information carefully from the form to their media releases.  I have no faith in that organization due to its inaccuracies of dealing with information and I witnessed it first hand.  I was in favor of civil unions from a legal perspective for the protections (medical, privacy matters, etc.) it offers homosexual individuals. 


I also see a huge difference between what we practice as Catholics and what is formulated in civil law.  I fear for any theocracy that assumes government control.  The Church should have learned valuable lessons with our not so illustrious history as the Holy Roman Empire.  We need to remain a Church not a government.  Legislators are sworn to uphold the law--civil and criminal law not the laws of any particular church.  At times the civil law may conflict with our own practices as Catholics, but we can choose to act individually as the Church teaches.  That doesn't mean we should force our beliefs on everyone else as a dictatorial Church.  The Catholic Church's own standing on morality has not always been right on every issue.  The Church condoned slavery for many years as an example.  That didn't make owning slaves morally right because the church hadn't condemned it yet.

The differences some churches have with regard to homosexuality and even abortion should not sever dialogue or discussion on other points otherwise we will get no where on unification.  These differences do not diminish either the work of other churches in caring for the poor and doing Christ's work which I see occurring every day.  To label them "evil" for holding differences in belief is simply overly judgmental and, in my opinion, morally wrong.  When you slander an organization as "evil" you slander people who in good conscious are following Christ, including some or many who may agree wholeheartedly with all your preconditions;  just because as whole they all don't doesn't warrant condemnation as you summarize.  The alliance of or with EMO does not mean the Catholic Church endorses all their beliefs, but that we can meet and discuss and help each other grow in understanding.   Your judgments examine the specks and miss the whole. 


While you seem excessively concerned with homosexual acts, there are probably many Catholics engaging in sexual acts seen just as sinful according to Church teaching, but I don't see any reference to that element of sin within our own heterosexual population.  Why the focus on the homosexual population when it comes to sinful sexual behavior?  Are you saying their sin is greater than that of heterosexuals whose practices are sinful?   A partnership does not condone any particular behavior between a couple other than a commitment to love each other and be committed to their needs.  We have Catholic marriages that are celibate; how are you to know what homosexual unions are celibate? I prefer to let God be the judge of what people decide to do sexually.  The Church can teach and I value the Church as a teaching Church, but judgment is not our as individuals to make. Priests can make it in a confessional setting, but even that is limited and exercised with special care.
Jim


Jim,
There are errors in your last letter.  The first is your stand on abortion and homosexual marriage.  These are intrinsic evils for all Catholics yet, you did support them in your 2004 campaign for state representative in District 50.   You wrote :  ".....but I am against abortion, for parental notification and against partial birth abortion.  I never said anything differently in my campaign"   Please click....  Jim Buck's Moral Compass   Scroll down to District 50.  And what about Planned Parenthood's endorsement?

 Pro-Life Opposed to Legalized Abortion - NO!  Favors Parental Notification before Teenage Abortion  - NO!  Favors Marriage Definition of One Man, One Woman  -NO!  Opposed to Minority Status for Homosexuals - NO!  Opposed to Increased Taxes and Spending - NO!  Favors Education Vouchers - NO!

Your soul is your own business, but the soul of the Archdiocese of Portland is the business of all Oregon Catholics.  These are the teachings of Christ Himself, not of men.  They need to be defended against those even with good motives who don't get it.

For the Archdpdx to be involved so closely, spending limited resources to belong to Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon is ridiculous.  Can't  we have "dialog" with EMO churches who hold completely different moral beliefs on the dignity of life.  Do we need to pay for this?  What about pro-life churches?  It appears that we have no "dialog" with them and  it's free. In fact, the knowledge of EMO is well known and pro-life churches wonder why we're on the wrong team.

Being with EMO so long, you seem to have become more like them and less in love with the True Church.  What I see is "Synergy", a blending of ecumenism which melds beliefs together.  Some Catholic beliefs have been in place since Christ walked the earth and cannot change, as He cannot.  The Holy Father warns us against "synergy?   While always loving our protestant brothers and sisters in EMO, we do not change our beliefs to theirs.

"I urge you brothers to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles in opposition to teachings that you have learned, avoid them.  For such people do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the innocent." Romans 16:17-18

Your defense of anti-Catholic beliefs of EMO and the put down of the Church is an error and shows little knowledge of Her and shows your heart.  There seems to be no balance in your attack of Church teachings.   Isn't there anything nice to say?

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
Corinthians 1:25


God Bless you,
Carolyn:


#4

Carolyn,
I disagree with the characterizations of OFC based on my responses and positions then, but enough of that as I am not going to convince you and you certainly can't convince me of what my own beliefs were or are.  We clearly disagree on the boundaries of church and state.
EMO has members who are orthodox and I've been at meetings with very fundamentalist oriented churches.  I am not sure who EMO should be in dialogue with who are more pro-life than Catholics, Greek Orthodox, other middle eastern denominations, etc.  We're in consistent communication with very conservative Protestant churches as well.
Truth is not as absolute as you seem to believe.  Again EMO's energies in its ministries is caring for the most vulnerable.  It doesn't fund Planned Parenthood or other agencies supporting abortion.  It hasn't favored political positions supporting that.  It certainly doesn't deserve the descriptor as "evil" that you use.
I will continue to pray for you in hopes your words don't discourage people trying to get together across church lines to help others as Christ would like us to do.


Jim


Jim,

The characterizations of you by Oregon Family Council's Voter's Guide show that you are having a hard time looking yourself in the face.  If they had been so wrong about you there would have been some complaint from you.  There was time to get corrections on this guide and answer the "orange postcard" effort to tell the truth that you weren't pro-life for the unborn.  Real pro-life John Lim won that election.  Since you were so public about your feelings, if they have changed you need to publicly let this be known.


"EMO is a covenantal membership organization dedicated to respond to God's call to the unity of all people"  The Catholic Church has a covenant with Christ not David Leslis, the EMO Director.

This is why Catholics don't belong to such as EMO, National Council of Churches, World Council of Churches etc. Those groups posted on the EMO website Ecumenical Minsitries of Oregon don't have Roman Catholic listed.  If we look at the The Pew Forum...Church Pie Chart
  Oregon Catholics are needed to fill the void of these littler churches.  We are deep pockets and plus our beliefs could meld with theirs.  It's Synergy nothing less.

You're statement "Truth is not as absolute as you seem to believe."  Shows how blended you are, or poorly cathecised.  It's like the Mission of the Atonment, a blending of Catholic and Lutherans at Sunday services.

You have one foot planted in mid-air and the other on a slippery rock.  There IS absoute Truth: Christ, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Being on the Board of EMO could be a good political move for a Democrat like you but, it's not wise for you to say you're  Catholic and  throw overboard the True Church and Her Teachings.

God Bless,
Carolyn

#5
Carolyn,
Your accuracy in what you write is about as bad as some organizations I have criticized when evidence clearly points to just the opposite.  EMO lists "Roman Catholic" in the first sentence on their home page regarding what groups constitute their organization.   The "Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Portland" is shown under their "membership" listing  in the category of "About Us" if you click on that button.   How can you then say that "Roman Catholic" isn't represented on their website or isn't a member of the organization when it's there in black and white?    How can you have credibility when you can't even get these simple facts straights?


My dictionary shows "covenantal" in the "ecclesiastical" definition as follows:
"Ecclesiastical . a solemn agreement between the members of a church to act together in harmony with the precepts ofthe gospel.


This in no way impinges on our covenant with God as a Church.  How you can construe it otherwise again only testifies to the spirit you bring to the work.  I trust in divine judgment and I am convinced there will be a reckoning for those who believe they are the ultimate judges here on earth for what is righteous.


Jim

Jim,

Hold on...why would I be concerned that the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Portland get OUT of EMO, if they weren't represented on their web page and PART of IT?  You are the one not making any sense.  Think about it.

"Ecclesiastical - A solemn agreement between members of a church.....acting in harmony with the precepts of the gospel"
Okay, that's why we don't enter a "solemn agreement" with EMO, National Council of Church, Church Women United, World Council of Churches..and other blended groups.  I have a real problem with the Metropolitan Community of Churches, which is homosexually oriented and Catholics can't be in a solemn agreement with them.  Pure and simple.


These people are not Catholics for a reason.  We are needed for credibility, connections and money not our religious views on moral issues we hold dear.  We can't be part of them as their group.  I repeat, David Leslie, executive director of EMO is NOT the Pope.

It seems like you are confused as to what a Roman Catholic is...it's much easier for me,  a convert with many spiritual experiences to compare what you're going through as a cradle Catholic.


The Catholics involved in EMO might get a swift kick in the pants when the new Archbishop comes.  Symbolic, of course.

Carolyn

#6
Carolyn
You wrote:  "Those posted on the EMO website Ecumenical Minsitries of Oregon don't have Roman Catholic listed. "  You preceded that by writing  that Catholics don't belong to such as EMO. . . "    The statements did not appear to me to be accurate.  Clearly, Catholics can "belong" to EMO if our Archdiocese already is a member.  I was taking what your wrote as a statement of fact.  If you meant something other than you wrote literally, you might have clarified it.
You don't see eye to eye with our current archbishop from the content I reviewed on your website.  I guess it's only fair to say some won't see eye with the next one either.  I don't see any real problem with that.  Many issues are not simply black and white--there should be room for dialogue on them.
My definition of a "Catholic" is without a doubt different from yours.  You are entitled to your opinion, but unless your theological training and moral leadership are superior to the Archbishop I will defer to his judgment on the issue.


Jim

Jim,

Any Bishop does not trump the teachings of the Catholic church. Ours is not on board 100% with EMO and acts on a doubtful conscience.

EMO is light years away from where the Roman Catholic Church is going.   They are into more than doing good works.  I'm sure that there are many well meaning people in EMO.

You need to re-read what I've said in my last letter.  I know EMO has Roman Catholic listed on their website.  I repeat...why in the world would I complain about the Archpdx in EMO if we weren't listed on the EMO website.

All through the years, it's been repeated over and over again.  Get the Archdpdx out of EMO.  Out means OUT.

Yes, in my opinion EMO is evil.

If you're right,  I'll be an alarmist, crazed lunatic.  What if I'm right?

God Bless,
Carolyn


Hopefully this is over.

13 comments:

priest's wife said...

wow- take a deep breath- you know God is 'on your side' as you are on His side

Cindy, Bend said...

What can I say, Carolyn you speak for me. Your responses were both artful and educational. As for the title Dueling Catholics, I think not. There is such a thing as self-excommunication, as you stated and Jim is not seeking catechesis; he has made up his mind that he is right and, therefore, you are wrong, so a good title might be A Dueling Catholic and a Protestant. We are called upon on all matters to "judge" not the people but what they say and what they do (love the sinner, hate the sin). This is what we call an informed conscience, dicerning right from wrong, before we act, in thought, word and deed. This is for Jim: As a Catholic, we are called to put our faith into practice and through the Corporal and Spiritual works of Mercy. In the Spiritual works of Mercy we are called to 1. Admonish the sinner. 2. Instruct the ignorant. 3. Counsel the doubtful, etc. This is what Carolyn has just done for you, you should be grateful; good work Carolyn many graces upon you.

As a Catholic I am "intolerant" of the deceit through lies some so-called catholics with a microphone describe as tenants of our faith (Nancy P. and now thanks to you Jim B.). There, I just took back two words (judge and intolerant) made dirty by misuse and cleaned them up for their proper use.
Recently, I read a book entitled Original Intent by David Barton, I would send it to you but when I received it it was in black and white and now it is mostly yellow, why do I do this? You can get it from the library, the purchase price with shipping is around $20. It is worth owning, so you can turn it yellow. It's focus is on the Constitution and the Bill of Right and their original intent. I couldn't put it down.

A very smart pro-life leader, whose name escapes me at the moment but who was at the CMA Awards ceremony in Washington, DC recently, where Bishop Vasa was honored, called this time a time of war, as more than 50 million American citizens (more if you count the number of septic and chemical abortions due to the birth control pill; bringing the number closer to 300 million, that's one for every citizen living right now in this country) have been surgically murdered in the womb (my word). She called out "No more nice" and had everyone repeat it, it became the theme of the evening.

Anyway, it's late and I am tired, thanks for sending me this post. I fully enjoyed the read.

In His name

Peter said...

Thanks for this Carolyn. You hold the right view in my opinion. We
need to stay with the Truth. Let's hope this long discussion will bear
good fruit for the salvation of souls. Like you I would like to see the
Archdiocese exit from EMO. I have the view that the whole ecumenical
movement has been designed for "dialog." Dialog opens the door for
compromise. And there should be no compromise with the true Magisterial
teachings of the Church. God bless

Barbara said...

What patience you have! He is one who is "confused" on the Church. He would do a lot better if he concentrated on his faith. Continue to teach. Everyone needs the truth.

Fondly

Joe said...

Hi Carolyn:

Excellent defense of true CATHOLIC moral teaching. I have several questions for EMO defenders:

1. What is the biological purpose of sex?

2. Where do so-called homosexual parents get their children?

3. Why were Sodomy and Gomorah destroyed?

4. How many major businesses that collapsed, contributed
to homosexual organizations?

What will be their answers?

God is not mocked and His just punishments are already slowly
appearing in our collapsing economy, unwinnable wars, violent
crimes, and list of broken families as shown in news reports.

Keep the truth flowing.

God bless you for your courageous work, for His greater honor and glory.

Dave N. said...

Hi Carolyn,

This is great. I read every word.

We need more people to speak up about these items.

I have brought up privately and publicly to Father Craig Boly, pastor
of St. Pius parish regarding Wilhoit who is on the Portland
Development Commission that gave the land free to PP for the large,
new PP on Martin Luther King Blvd in Portland. Wilhoit is also on the
board of directors of Jesuit High School. Is that school Catholic????

Peace. I keep praying for my Pro-Life friends at Mass and for some
great event that will occur one of these days! Our prayers are really
needed to restore our country.

By the way, did Lim or Buck win in district 50?

Peace

VOCAL said...

John Lim won. This was after the "orange postcard" campaign at his church, St. Henry's in Gresham. This effort was led by Oregon Right to Life unmasking Jim Buck as pro-abortion. This helped put John Lim, pro-lifer to the core, to be State Respresentative for Dictrict 50.

Joe said...

Excellent defense of true CATHOLIC moral teaching. I have several questions for EMO defenders:

1. What is the biological purpose of sex?

2. Where do so-called homosexual parents get their children?

3. Why were Sodomy and Gomorah destroyed?

4. How many major businesses that collapsed, contributed
to homosexual organizations?

What will be their answers?

God is not mocked and His just punishments are already slowly
appearing in our collapsing economy, unwinnable wars, violent
crimes, and list of broken families as shown in news reports.

Keep the truth flowing.

God bless you for your courageous work, for His greater honor and glory.

VOCAL said...

Thanks Joe, this means alot to me. I truly pray for those like Jim Buck and our Archbishop who have lost their way on, at least, this issue.

Jerry said...

Good job. If Archb Valzny can't "preach the word; can't be instant in season and out of season: reprove, correct, entreat, rebuke, in all patience and doctrine... they will not endure sound doctrine, etc." II Tim 4:2-3; at least he has one woman in his diocese that can.
He must hand in his resignation this year because he is 75. We need a Bishop Vasa.
You probably noticed that Archb Dolan only won by 17 votes. 111 bishops voted for Kincanas. That means that 111 bishops of USCCB are pro-homosexual. Dolan is a surprise but I do not know if he is a Bruskewitz or Vasa.
I do not know if you know much about the Marian Movement of Priests. I have been to 4 of Fr. Gobbi's international priests' retreats in the last 7 years, held outside of Rome. I will share one interloction that Our Blessed Mother gave him and us:
#133 - My Property: "If you remain in the garden of my Immaculate Heart, you become my property. Thus, no one can any longer take you away from Me, because I myself am you defense; you should always feel safe.
You must no longer fear either satan, or the world, or the frailty of your nature.
Certainly you will experience that seduction and that temptation which the Lord permits as a test to allow you to experience the extent of your weakness.
But I will defend you from the evil one, who can do nothing to harm those who are part of my property.
Then gently, I will cultivate you till each one of you becomes that kind of garden in which, as in mine, the divine splendor of the Trinity can be reflected.
I form you with maternal solicitude. With my own hands, I root out from you whatever might, in any way, be displeasing to the Lord.
The Spirit in whom I am clothed is like a fire which consumes everything within you, so that there remain not even a shadow which might bedim that beauty to which your heavenly Mother wishes to bring you. I want to make you a most pure transparency of God.
And then, I am strengthening in you those virtues which are like roots on which depends any possibility of your growth: faith, hope and charity. Round these, I am giving you, as ornaments, all those other virtues which have made your Mother beautiful in the sight of God.
And in the measure that you open yourself more and more to the light of God, I am sprinkling upon you the balm of my perfume:
humility, confidence, self abandonment."
Keep up the good work.

VOCAL said...

I pray that we get a straight shooting Archbishop in 2012. We are so tired of being our own Shepherd and have to be thrilled to get a decent homily and Liturgy. Thanks for your spiritual insight. Let's make sure that this Archdiocese reflects the Church.

Rachael, said...

Jim says, "I trust in divine judgment and I am convinced there will be a reckoning for those who believe they are the ultimate judges here on earth for what is righteous.


Oh wow, I fear those words are going to come back to bite him! YIKES!

VOCAL said...

It is something we who believe in Eternal Life have to believe...if they are right, but have at least lead a good life, or tried to. If they are wrong they lose their soul.

The demons are roaming constantly and they come in sheep's clothing

Thanks for your comment. I am praying for a conversion of sorts for him, Jim Buck, at least a start.